More details on the Kyle Miller incident?

[dimsumdaddy]

My condolences to the Kyle Miller family.

I have a few questions about their incident. It may sound like I'm being a devil's advocate, but I'm really just trying to understand the situation and it affects my own decision making. I mean no disrespect at all to the Miller family and commend them for all their efforts.

- What kind of van and what year was the Miller van?
- The Miller family van seat belt failed. Judging from the website, the advocate against "inertial release" seat belts would seem to suggest that it was an older van with the "side button" seat belt clasps. Are top release clasps that much safer against inertial releases?
- Since this was a seat belt failure, it would seem that even a 5 point harness could fail in exactly the same way. 5 points are definitely safer than 3 points, but in the 5 point clasp would seem to also be susceptible to failure just like the regular belt?
- With a car seat, you also rely on the LATCH belts to secure the chair. Even if installed correctly, there is still a chance that the LATCH hooks or the belt itself could fail too
- Had an adult been sitting in Kyle's position, they would have perished because it was the belt that failed. Thus the issue is bad seat belt, not 5 point harness.

Comments?

I do not want to take away the excellent message from the Millers that 5 pt harnesses are safer and that children are safer in car seats for as long as possible.

It would seem that if you want make sure you and your passengers (of all ages) are safe, you need to keep up on manufacturer recalls, keep the pressure on manufacturers to maintain high safety and do testing, and run around in cars no older than 6 or so years.

- BTW, how is it that baby seats expire but car seat belts do not?

	LATCH LATCH stands for Lower Anchors and Tethers for CHildren. It is a system mandated by the Federal government in an effort to standardize and simplify the installation of child restraints without using the vehicle's seat belt system. New vehicles and child safety seats manufactured on and after September 1, 2002 will be equipped with the LATCH system. Cars, minivans, and light trucks will be required to have anchor points between the vehicle's seat cushion and the seat back in at least two rear seating positions, and a top tether anchor (with the exception of convertibles). Child safety seats will have a lower set of attachments that fasten to the vehicle anchors. Most forward-facing child safety seats will also have a top strap (tether) that attaches to the top anchor in the vehicle.

[SusanMae]

Not sure on the year of the van, but I *believe* that it was a Chrysler model.

They had what were referred to as Generation 3 belts. I'm not exactly sure what that means. New tech still.

At this time, I'm unaware of any failures of carseat harnesses at the buckle.

As far as the LATCH hooks or the LATCH strap---NEVER NEVER use LATCH and the cars belt to install at the same time---yes it could fail, especially when used incorrectly. The chance of it failing goes down significantly when it and the carseat are used correctly. I've yet to find anything in this life that was a garuntee....well except death--as far as I can tell, we all have to die someday.

If it was in fact that the seatbelt released--then yes, an adult could have been thrown from the car---or they could have stayed in the car and caused brain damage or death to the other passengers by simply being unrestrained.

General comments---in life there are no garentees. We do the best we can with what we have and know. Kyle's parents did the best with the knowlege that they had. Unfortunately, the message about HWH, extended rear facing has been slow to get out and it's been information that has not necessarily easy to get your hands on unless you really seek it out and many parents don't. Now they are getting the message out that we can do more---and that's GREAT. I will say that I noticed in the video that it appears that they added padding to the boosters...and that's a no-no. I have no idea how or even if that played a role in the seatbelt release.

Carseats expire because of the amount of plastic used in them, safety changes, stickers come off...so you don't know how to properly use the seat, manufacturers can't keep parts around for 15 yr old seats and continue to redesign and improve new models. And some of those 20 yr old + seats look more like contraptions compared to what we have now.

Seatbelts are made from webbing and metal...very little if any plastic.

Plastic degrades over time...ever leave a plastic toy out...like a bucket in the sand box. After a while the bucket will be brittle and break.

I hope I answered some of your questions. Please excuse my spelling--it's late.

Susan

	Rear Facing Car Seats A rear-facing seat is one in which the infant faces the back of the car. Always install a rear-facing seat in the back seat of your car. This is the safest position for an infant. NEVER place a rear-facing seat in the front seat of a vehicle with passenger airbags.

	Higher Weight Harnessing Higher weight harnessing seat. A convertible or combination seat that harnesses past 40lbs.

	LATCH LATCH stands for Lower Anchors and Tethers for CHildren. It is a system mandated by the Federal government in an effort to standardize and simplify the installation of child restraints without using the vehicle's seat belt system. New vehicles and child safety seats manufactured on and after September 1, 2002 will be equipped with the LATCH system. Cars, minivans, and light trucks will be required to have anchor points between the vehicle's seat cushion and the seat back in at least two rear seating positions, and a top tether anchor (with the exception of convertibles). Child safety seats will have a lower set of attachments that fasten to the vehicle anchors. Most forward-facing child safety seats will also have a top strap (tether) that attaches to the top anchor in the vehicle.

[talalyn]

The top release clasps are no safer. Also when installed next to eachother, the seatbelts can prove very dangerous. Just the other day I saw this happen when my mother in law put a booster next to an installed carseat. The carseats are allowed up to 1 inch of movement and as she went around a turn at 10 miles an hour, the carseat moved slightly and the button on the seatbelt was pushed just right. (Normally we would always use the 5-point harness on the 65lb weight limit seat but we lost our second locking clip and were on our way to get one. Without a locking clip, we decided using the seatbelt would be safer).
- 5-point harnesses are made differently than a standard seatbelt. Think of all the accidents on the news and how many babies deploy from the car, still safely attached to their carseat, but not the car itself.
-LATCH and seatbelts still have a failure rate, carseat or not. The true benefit of using a carseat is that, in the event of an accident, the child stays securely buckled to a safe object, protecting their head, neck and back from injury.
- With Kyle David Miller's situation, you are correct that it was the belt that failed, but many accidents involve children too small for the seatbelt (which was designed for a 4'11" petite woman), slipping out of the single shoulder belt and being injured this way. Same goes with a 3-point harness or a 3-point harness with a bar in front.
The truth of the matter is that 5-point harnesses are designed and built to be safer and all of us would be safer in them, but the babies and children, with their bodies still growing need them the most.

	Booster Seat A booster seat raises your child up so that the car's lap and shoulder belts fit correctly. The lap belt should fall across the upper thighs. The shoulder belt should go across the middle of the shoulder and chest. A booster seat is used for older children up to about 80 pounds. Some states have passed laws requiring booster seats for children up to age 8 or 80 pounds. Check your state's law.

	LATCH LATCH stands for Lower Anchors and Tethers for CHildren. It is a system mandated by the Federal government in an effort to standardize and simplify the installation of child restraints without using the vehicle's seat belt system. New vehicles and child safety seats manufactured on and after September 1, 2002 will be equipped with the LATCH system. Cars, minivans, and light trucks will be required to have anchor points between the vehicle's seat cushion and the seat back in at least two rear seating positions, and a top tether anchor (with the exception of convertibles). Child safety seats will have a lower set of attachments that fasten to the vehicle anchors. Most forward-facing child safety seats will also have a top strap (tether) that attaches to the top anchor in the vehicle.

[SusanMae]

If seatbelts next to one another were truely a concern...we wouldn't have 3 belts in the back. It may happen...but if it happened on any kind of regular basis---they wouldn't be doing anymore. There would be a public out cry and gov't intervention.

I don't know where you live...but I can get news from both the Wash, DC area and the Balitmore, MD area---and I don't think I've ever heard a story of the carseat with child in it being ejected and the child being fine. And I'm apart of the listserve---haven't ready any of those stories on there either.

Where is that study on the failure rate of LATCH vs Seatbelt? I'd love to read it. Everything that I've been taught as a CPST is that both LATCH and the Seatbelt are equally safe and to use the one that gives you the BEST install. One is NOT safer than the other. I imagine failures come in when people are using either system incorrectly--and well that's not a failure of the system...that's misuse.

I know I've read along the lines that the seatbelt is designed for a nearly 6', 200 pound male. I'm 5'2" and I have a problem with seatbelts fitting me properly in some situations. Unfortunatly they don't make a booster for me.

And an overhead sheild is considered a 5 pt...but the points are in different locations, and you're risking your childs face smacking a hard plastic bar in a crash.

Susan, CPST

	Booster Seat A booster seat raises your child up so that the car's lap and shoulder belts fit correctly. The lap belt should fall across the upper thighs. The shoulder belt should go across the middle of the shoulder and chest. A booster seat is used for older children up to about 80 pounds. Some states have passed laws requiring booster seats for children up to age 8 or 80 pounds. Check your state's law.

	LATCH LATCH stands for Lower Anchors and Tethers for CHildren. It is a system mandated by the Federal government in an effort to standardize and simplify the installation of child restraints without using the vehicle's seat belt system. New vehicles and child safety seats manufactured on and after September 1, 2002 will be equipped with the LATCH system. Cars, minivans, and light trucks will be required to have anchor points between the vehicle's seat cushion and the seat back in at least two rear seating positions, and a top tether anchor (with the exception of convertibles). Child safety seats will have a lower set of attachments that fasten to the vehicle anchors. Most forward-facing child safety seats will also have a top strap (tether) that attaches to the top anchor in the vehicle.