Best seat for 1992 Toyota Celica convertible

[JPS911]

Here's my situation:

15 month old out growing rear facing infant carrier (he's a bit of a peanut, so just recently outgrew it).

We live in Manhattan and drive rather seldom.

We have a 1992 Toyota Celica convertible. This presents a few problems:
1. Surprisingly rear seat room is not so much of an issue.
2. The seat, though technically a bench seat, is essentially two bucket seats, as the drivetrain tunnel separates them. Additionally, the "butt" part of the seat is nestled in and back at an angle, surrounded by a raise part of the seat...think of sitting in a seat and along the top of your butt / small of your back, plus along each thigh is a raised portion of the seat (padded) sort of holding you in place.
3. Near where an adult shoulder is, the convertible gearing and such is nestled behind a panel, essentially making the back seating area more narrow.
4. Since most if not all child seats cannot fit their base inside the area described above in (2), foam or something would likely be required to level out the area.
5. In a 1992 car I do not have LATCH.

This results in the need for a very narrow child seat and/or shifting the child seat over towards the center of the back bench seat.

I have come up with several points in a course of action:

1. Post on this board
2. Look at the Radian 65/80
OR
3. Get a more normal sized child seat and build up the back seat with foam or something else (I've heard pool tube floaties are good)
OR
4. Install a flat board across the seat to allow a flat base for installation of the child seat.

My concerns on the Radian are simply if it will fit (I will check it out). For the foam solution, I'm concerned in the event of an impact the two different densities of foam (pool floaty or towel or whatever) and the back seat built in foam would compress differently, causing some sort of torque on the child seat outside of its design parameters, and thus having safety issues. For the flat board, I don't have a lot of issues I've seen other than it is untested and knowledgeable people are loathe to provide too much advice on it due to its untested nature.

Thoughts, assuming the Radian does not fit? I don't have a pic so downloaded a similar one from Ebay...you can kind of see how deep it gets in back.

	Rear Facing Car Seats A rear-facing seat is one in which the infant faces the back of the car. Always install a rear-facing seat in the back seat of your car. This is the safest position for an infant. NEVER place a rear-facing seat in the front seat of a vehicle with passenger airbags.

	Convertible Car Seats Convertible seats are for infants and toddlers. The seat can be used as a rear-facing seats for younger children, and switched to a forward-facing seat on the child's first birthday if the child weighs at least 20 pounds. However, experts recommend keeping the child in a rear-facing position until he or she outgrows the weight or height allowed by the safety seat.

	Infant Car Seats Infant-only rear-facing seats are for babies up to about 22 to 30 pounds, depending on the specific car seat. You will need a new seat when your child gets bigger. Infant-only seats have handles that allow you to move the seat from the car to the house or other locations. Some have a base that you can leave installed in the car, so you can just click the car seat into place each time you use it.

	Sunshine Kids Radian 80 or 65 - Click for more info If "the Sunshine Kid's Radian 80 convertible car seat is (probably) the only car seat you will ever need," the "probably" part of this statement comes into play when you directly compare the Radian 80 with the Britax Regent. While the Radian 80 has a very high weight capacity, the seat width is only 10" vs. the Regent's 14" seat. The Britax Regent may be a bit wider, but it is very bulky, is only forward facing, and does not fold like the Radian 80. Because the Radian 80 is so narrow, you can potentially put three of them side by side in the back seat. Three Regents side by side? Impossible.

	LATCH LATCH stands for Lower Anchors and Tethers for CHildren. It is a system mandated by the Federal government in an effort to standardize and simplify the installation of child restraints without using the vehicle's seat belt system. New vehicles and child safety seats manufactured on and after September 1, 2002 will be equipped with the LATCH system. Cars, minivans, and light trucks will be required to have anchor points between the vehicle's seat cushion and the seat back in at least two rear seating positions, and a top tether anchor (with the exception of convertibles). Child safety seats will have a lower set of attachments that fasten to the vehicle anchors. Most forward-facing child safety seats will also have a top strap (tether) that attaches to the top anchor in the vehicle.

[SusanMae]

Thank you for including pics of the backseat.

Those seatbelts will surely present a challenge to you. Based on what I know, you'll likely need to learn to use a locking clip to lock the belt and to hold the seat in place. I suggest you get together with a CPST to get a safe installation.

Carseats have been crash tested using pool noodles or a rolled towel to assist in getting the proper recline.

Using a board is an unsafe and un tested method that could result in serious injury or the death of your child.

Susan

[JPS911]

Thanks for your response. My concern is less about the seatbelts, but rather about the positioning of the child seat given the "bucket" nature of the rear seat. (See the first picture below with the red part outlining what I'm calling the "bucket").



Due to the offset towards the middle required to clear the upper Celica convertible mechanisms (see the blue arrow in the pic above), most, if not all child seat bases will not fit inside the "bucket". Therefore if I have to put part of the base on the side of the "bucket" of the Celica seat (say near the speaker grill in the above picture, or near the seatbelts in the above picture, so that part of the child seat is on the Celica "bucket" surrounding), and part of the child base on a rolled towel or pool floaty inside the bucket to essentially level it off with the side of the "bucket", it doesn't seem like it is going to end up too stable. (See pic below with the tan monster representing a child seat).



Therefore part of my thinking is if I install and secure thick plywood over the bucket on the sides of the seat (see figure below), that provides a uniform flat surface to set the seat on but of course still mount it according to specifications with the Celica seatbelts and tether from the car seat if applicable, both stable and slightly offset from the center of the bucket to clear the Celica convertible mechanisms. (see final picture).





Does that make any more sense?

	Convertible Car Seats Convertible seats are for infants and toddlers. The seat can be used as a rear-facing seats for younger children, and switched to a forward-facing seat on the child's first birthday if the child weighs at least 20 pounds. However, experts recommend keeping the child in a rear-facing position until he or she outgrows the weight or height allowed by the safety seat.

[SusanMae]

I see that you are wanting to turn your daughter Forward Facing. She will be MUCH safer if you leave her Rear Facing in a convertible carset.

You will be unable to use ANYTHING under her seat if you turn her FF. So using pool noodles(hard to come by in Jan in this region of the country) or a tightly rolled towel are out of the question.

Do you have a Babies R Us or a Toys R Us near you? If you go there , you can test seats out of your car to see what seats have the most narrow base to fit down in that bucket. My backseat is a bit bucketed as well, but not nearly as much as yours.

The seat belts are part of the equation as well. They are what hold that carseat to your car in a crash...and if you can't get the seat installed properly, well then the carseat can't do it's job should you ever be in a crash---and your daughter would be the one hurt.

I really suggest meeting with a tech once you think you've found your seat. They will be able to help you get the best fit possible, or point you to a different seat. And there is always the possibility that your car is incompatible with the seats currently on the market.

Could you install your daughters current seat and take a pic...that may help me more as well.

I'm also willing to try and find you a tech in your area who will be able to provide more hands on assistance.

Susan

	Forward Facing Car Seats A forward-facing car seat is one in which the child sits facing the front of the car. The seat should be installed in the back seat of your vehicle. Most forward-facing only seats are for children above 20 pounds.

	Rear Facing Car Seats A rear-facing seat is one in which the infant faces the back of the car. Always install a rear-facing seat in the back seat of your car. This is the safest position for an infant. NEVER place a rear-facing seat in the front seat of a vehicle with passenger airbags.

	Convertible Car Seats Convertible seats are for infants and toddlers. The seat can be used as a rear-facing seats for younger children, and switched to a forward-facing seat on the child's first birthday if the child weighs at least 20 pounds. However, experts recommend keeping the child in a rear-facing position until he or she outgrows the weight or height allowed by the safety seat.

[JPS911]

Ah! Good point on my diagram. Actually, I do want to do rear facing for as long as possible, after reading up on it at this and other sites (especially since size seems to be a factor here and my son is a bit of a peanut).

The Celica, despite its other back seat problems, has a surprising amount of leg room and therefore likely ample room for a rear facing seat (that, and I do most of the driving and my passenger wife is only 4' 11" and can therefore have the seat pretty far up in front). Run on sentence...please don't tell my 7th grade English teacher.

So most of my issue is planning for when we do go forward facing. I'm trying to buy the best seat that will fit and while I'm not factoring cost into that equation (planning probably $250-300), I would hate to have to then buy another seat when it is time to go forward facing, espcially as by then a booster might not be far off.

So I didn't realize that you couldn't put floaties or towels or whatever on forward facing? That is only for rearward facing I have seen that solution? What do people do on forward facing seats if the base doesn't line up perfectly in the "bucket" (most all seats seem to have some sort of "bucket", just perhaps not as deep as mine.

Secondly, I've noticed from the picture (didn't pay much attention since I haven't ridden in the back seat more than once in that car) that the seat belt click point isn't all the way back on the Celica seat. Is that an issue?

Thirdly, for rear or forward facing, if the aforementioned suggested board is secured (i.e., via attaching to vehicle with cable or whatever to the frame of the car), why couldn't the seat sit on that? How is that different than just an auto seat that is just a bench and/or has no bucket? That sounds challenging...not my intended tone...just curious as to how it is different from a "seeking to understand" standpoint.

Finally, I'm not super familiar with LATCH. Just behind the back seat (on the floor) is metal of the "trunk" (the back seat is fold down and open to the trunk). If I had a metalshop weld/bolt latch anchors to the metal floor behind the seat, couldn't I just use LATCH for securing, and avoid the seatbelts?

Also, thank you so much for taking the time to respond. I hope it is clear I am trying to put safety first, but not buy a new car. We live in Manhattan and only use it a couple/few times a month (and it is paid for).

I am absolutely planning on getting the seat inspected. Several of the moderators have a link in their sig, plus I've contacted one of the groups that do this sort of thing and there is a monthly inspection station. I'm just trying to do the up front work on what is possible, especially on the future shift to rear facing, and determine if my seat belt points are an issue.

	Forward Facing Car Seats A forward-facing car seat is one in which the child sits facing the front of the car. The seat should be installed in the back seat of your vehicle. Most forward-facing only seats are for children above 20 pounds.

	Rear Facing Car Seats A rear-facing seat is one in which the infant faces the back of the car. Always install a rear-facing seat in the back seat of your car. This is the safest position for an infant. NEVER place a rear-facing seat in the front seat of a vehicle with passenger airbags.

	Booster Seat A booster seat raises your child up so that the car's lap and shoulder belts fit correctly. The lap belt should fall across the upper thighs. The shoulder belt should go across the middle of the shoulder and chest. A booster seat is used for older children up to about 80 pounds. Some states have passed laws requiring booster seats for children up to age 8 or 80 pounds. Check your state's law.

	LATCH LATCH stands for Lower Anchors and Tethers for CHildren. It is a system mandated by the Federal government in an effort to standardize and simplify the installation of child restraints without using the vehicle's seat belt system. New vehicles and child safety seats manufactured on and after September 1, 2002 will be equipped with the LATCH system. Cars, minivans, and light trucks will be required to have anchor points between the vehicle's seat cushion and the seat back in at least two rear seating positions, and a top tether anchor (with the exception of convertibles). Child safety seats will have a lower set of attachments that fasten to the vehicle anchors. Most forward-facing child safety seats will also have a top strap (tether) that attaches to the top anchor in the vehicle.

[SusanMae]

Glad to hear you are planning on staying RF as long as possible. (I won't tell your teachers about your run-on's if you don't tell mine. I tend to type like I speak.)

The radian is the narrowest convertible seat out there, but a seat that sits up on a base may get a better fit. I haven't had personal experience with such a bucketed back seat---so again I reccomend going someplace where you can try before you buy. I've taken seats out to my car at both BRU and TRU. When you try a seat out, try both ways. It's reccomended that children remain harnessed to 5-6 yrs. And well those reccomendations may change by the time your little one gets to that point. Car safety for children is something we learning more and more about---improvements are being made very frequently. I would also check the Cosco Scenera. It's about $43 at Wal-Mart--and returns there are easy. If you can't find a Radian locally to try, you can buy on target.com and return to the store.

You can't put anything under a seat when it's forward facing because it wasn't tested that way is the simple answer. I don't have my training manual in the house(and it's cold out), but if I remember correctly it has to do with how far forward their head moves. There is an allowable amount--and any more is deemed too dangerous. Also when you use the seat in a way that is not reccomended by the car maker or the seat maker you void the warnenty AND any liability should something happen to your child in a crash...in essense you've made your precious child into a crash test dummy.

For the board...even attached to the car... In a crash the G-Forces will cause the board to break, then make the carseat loose, and run the risk of injuring your child. Again...child becomes real life crash test dummy. The one that is under your seat is attached per manufacturer specs...and I'm not going to pretend that I begin to understand the engineering that goes into those designs. I do know that there federal regulations(FMVSS) that tell what gets used and how it gets used, ect. And they are tested extensively.

LATCH stands for Lower Anchors and Tethers for CHildren. All cars made in Sept 02(I'm real close on that date) and after have this system. You canNOT have the lower anchors retrofitted in most cars. I think the only brand that does this is Audi. No reputable shop would take this on...as it's a HUGE liability for them when it fails in a crash.

You're welcome. I can tell your a dad who cares about their child and wants to do what's best, otherwise you wouldn't be here trying to find answers to your questions. I understand not wanting to purchase a new car--one of ours is paid for as well. We live in the sticks and there is little to no public transportation.

I do think that with where your seatbelt buckles are---it may play a role in whether or not you can safely secure a child seat there or not. Unfortunately some cars are just not compatible with carseats.

I hope I'm doing a decent job of answering your questions.

Susan

	Forward Facing Car Seats A forward-facing car seat is one in which the child sits facing the front of the car. The seat should be installed in the back seat of your vehicle. Most forward-facing only seats are for children above 20 pounds.

	Rear Facing Car Seats A rear-facing seat is one in which the infant faces the back of the car. Always install a rear-facing seat in the back seat of your car. This is the safest position for an infant. NEVER place a rear-facing seat in the front seat of a vehicle with passenger airbags.

	Convertible Car Seats Convertible seats are for infants and toddlers. The seat can be used as a rear-facing seats for younger children, and switched to a forward-facing seat on the child's first birthday if the child weighs at least 20 pounds. However, experts recommend keeping the child in a rear-facing position until he or she outgrows the weight or height allowed by the safety seat.

	Sunshine Kids Radian 80 or 65 - Click for more info If "the Sunshine Kid's Radian 80 convertible car seat is (probably) the only car seat you will ever need," the "probably" part of this statement comes into play when you directly compare the Radian 80 with the Britax Regent. While the Radian 80 has a very high weight capacity, the seat width is only 10" vs. the Regent's 14" seat. The Britax Regent may be a bit wider, but it is very bulky, is only forward facing, and does not fold like the Radian 80. Because the Radian 80 is so narrow, you can potentially put three of them side by side in the back seat. Three Regents side by side? Impossible.

	LATCH LATCH stands for Lower Anchors and Tethers for CHildren. It is a system mandated by the Federal government in an effort to standardize and simplify the installation of child restraints without using the vehicle's seat belt system. New vehicles and child safety seats manufactured on and after September 1, 2002 will be equipped with the LATCH system. Cars, minivans, and light trucks will be required to have anchor points between the vehicle's seat cushion and the seat back in at least two rear seating positions, and a top tether anchor (with the exception of convertibles). Child safety seats will have a lower set of attachments that fasten to the vehicle anchors. Most forward-facing child safety seats will also have a top strap (tether) that attaches to the top anchor in the vehicle.

[JPS911]

I agree with most of the points other than the board breaking. The board I was thinking of is 3/4" 7 ply plywood. It is a stronger grade than they build most houses with. A 30 lb child plus seat, call it 50 lbs just to be generous, would not exert enough torque (since that is the only force that would be exerted...the "dive" of the child seat toward the direction of motion/impact) to break it, especially given that the force would be spread over the base of the car seat.

[SusanMae]

Well weight x speed= the pounds of force needed to restrain an object....

So 50 pounds x 30mph= 1500 pounds of force being applied to the board in a split second. Willing to bet your child's life on that?

If you call Toyota and ask them if you can do it, they will tell you no, if you call any car seat manufacturer they too will tell you no.

If you do go through with it---you ARE making your child a crash test dummy. Trust me....your child is worth FAR more than what you are saving by buying a board and rigging something up. My husband and I buried our son...our first and our only thus far. I do this to keep other people from knowing what it's like to sit at your childs graveside. And we never even got to bring him home.

Plus having the seat up on the board...will push the child further out of the "cabin" You're already in a convertible with little roll over protection, if you put the carseat up on a shelf, what other kinds of injuries could you be potentially subjecting baby to?

Susan

	Convertible Car Seats Convertible seats are for infants and toddlers. The seat can be used as a rear-facing seats for younger children, and switched to a forward-facing seat on the child's first birthday if the child weighs at least 20 pounds. However, experts recommend keeping the child in a rear-facing position until he or she outgrows the weight or height allowed by the safety seat.

[JPS911]

First, my sincere sorrow for your loss. Not that you know me from Adam, but even with being a parent I can only vaguely imagine the immensity of your loss. Thank you for being one of the new champions for this important cause.

Without getting into the physics too far...the 1500 lbs is likely A) able to be absorbed by a square inch of this sturdy wood (strutural specs I have seen online estimate over 2000 lbs for some sanded dry plywood) and B) assuming a 9"x9" contact patch of 81 sq in from the child seat would distribute the 1500 lbs to about 80 lbs per sq in.

All that is likely moot because A) it is untested and despite whatever confidence I might have, I know enough to know that I don't know enough; and B) I hadn't considered the added height.

As an aside, I am part of a high speed driving club as a sideline hobby where we track our cars regularly (speeds approaching 150 mph at the end of some straights on the bigger tracks). I have spent significant time & effort (and expense) learning about the physics of impacts, dynamic loading, stretch of seat belt webbing, forces on anti sub belts (necessary when there is no seat belt tensioner at work), and the workings of a 3 point harness (and how the shoulder strap tensioner is actually is designed to torque the front (adult) driver and passenger so that they don't slide out from under the lap portion of the belt).

Most any installation of racing equipment is to some degree untested, as it is most often pretty custom. Of course the components are tested, but often for the total system you just have to trust it adds up to at least as much as the sum of the components. HOWEVER, the risk I assume in this activit